Ho-kay - Thor's
back…or is he, a hero falls, defections start to take place, and the
Pro-Registration pulls out a new weapon.
What does it all mean?
We corralled Civil War writer Mark Millar and Editor Tom
Brevoort to talk about this week's issue - in detail. Yup - you
read that right. In detail. So…
Spoiler warning!!!
If you haven't read
Civil War #4 yet, you probably want to skip this. Otherwise,
come on in.
Newsarama: To
begin with - page one…was Thor always cast for this role, that is,
the "secret weapon" to be pulled out at a moment of great need by
Tony? Was there ever anyone else?
Mark Millar:
Yeah, I had Thor pegged since the beginning for the simple reason
that I wanted to see him in this book. It was honestly that simple.
I'm very old school with Marvel and the fact we were missing Hawkeye,
Scarlet Witch, The Hulk and Thor (among others) really diminished
the visual element of the book for me as I was putting the story
together. My inner ten-year-old just enjoys seeing big spreads with
all these varied characters lumped together. It's what makes a crossover
special to me. So Thor was always coming back, one way or another.
 Originally,
I thought we could maybe have his big return in the book, but when
I realized a new series was in the works I rejigged my plans a little
and followed this approach instead. It actually works better this
way too because it pulls the rug out from under the readers and
has given us quite a frightening character in subsequent issues.
Tom Brevoort:
But Thor is also the tip of the iceberg, and the first glimpse of
Tony, Reed and Hank's larger plan, the Fifty State Initiative, as
you'll see in issue #5.
NRAMA: At the
same time as the Thor fight - let's hit on the Cap/Iron Man fight.
It's hardly fair, but at the same time, showing Cap calling Tony
names - this is far beyond ideologies battling, and is personal.
In your view, have these two harbored a level of resentment toward
each other for years, or is this a recent development?
MM: I don't think
it's been brewing for years. We've seen a blowout or two in the
past, but good friends often make the worst enemies. We see this
in real life, but even in comics we've seen it with guys like Superman
and Luthor and Magneto and Charles Xavier. Think about splits you
see in people's families. It's usually people who were very close
who end up loathing each other for the smallest of reasons. Cap
sees a rich guy just ripping apart everything he believes in and
he's a passionate guy. Cap has been written like Abraham Lincoln
in the past, but my fondest Cap is the '70s Kirby Cap where he reminded
us that Cap is from The Bronx. I think, in a fight, this is what
Cap would be like when the chips are down.
TB:
Cap and Iron Man have had a long and tumultuous history, and they've
ended up on opposite ideological sides a number of times. Their
relationship up to and including this point will be explored in-depth
in the Captain
America/Iron Man: Casualties of War one-shot.
MM: Yeah, likewise
in the Cap/ Iron Man: Give Us More Of Your Money miniseries
I'm discussing with my bank manager right now...
 NRAMA:
Mark's financials aside, and back to the story - this may be how
Cap fights when the chips are down, but what's the basis of the
nastiness? Cap almost makes it sound like some class warfare issues...
MM: It's a rich
boy up against a blue collar kid from the Bronx. The American class
system (and ours for the last twenty years to some extent) is based
on wealth so there's probably a little truth to that.
TB: I think that's
the pressure talking, as much as anything else. But there is an
element of class involved between these two. Cap grew up in a Depression-era
tenement, whereas Tony was born with a silver spoon, and all that.
Once you strip away the shields and the armor and the powers, these
are two guys whose perspectives on the world were shaped from totally
opposite ends of the sociological spectrum.
 NRAMA:
Moving over to someone who has a completely different sociological
perspective - Hercules' attack on Iron Man - from issue #3, we saw
that he was intent on stopping the Cap/Iron Man fight from the start.
Why? He's sided with Cap, but where's his head in this? Does he
have a specific ideological point of view on Registration, or does
he just have loyalty for Cap based on their past, and if Cap's for
it, it has to be the right thing to do?
MM: Frankie Miller
had a great line in Daredevil: Born Again where he describes
Cap as having a voice that could command a God. To me, that's one
of the reasons why Cap, who's really just an enhanced human, is
the only viable leader for The Avengers. He's so true and noble,
so dead-set in his beliefs, that even Gods or aliens of beings from
parallel Earths or whatever just have to do what he says when he
screams at them all to assemble. I think you'd have a hard time
disobeying Cap, whether you're a Greek God or a paunchy Scot from
Glasgow.
TB: I think Hercules
is a pretty simple, straightforward character as far as his ideologies
go. He's not at all interested in the Registration Act, and probably
doesn't even entirely understand it. But he knows that Captain America
is his brother-in-arms, and so he's willing to fight by his side
to the death.
NRAMA: Geeking
for a moment - the anti-registration's escape - level of effort
for Sue - how does stopping Thor's lightning compare to other forces
she's shielded herself or others from? She doesn't normally get
a bloody nose when stopping bullets…
 TB:
Well, it's a big lightning bolt, but probably not the equal of what
the true Thor could have generated. And that bloody nose could just
as easily have come from the fighting beforehand.
NRAMA: The aftermath
of the battle - probably something that's going to cause loads of
discussion for months - legally - who's responsible for the death
of Goliath?
MM: What we have
to remember is that the anti-reg guys are criminals. They're out
there breaking the law and, essentially, endangering lives. The
pro-reg guys now work for the federal government. They're super-cops
and Goliath was a casualty of resisting arrest.
TB: Right. Goliath
was a Federal fugitive who was killed while trying to resist arrest
using superhuman abilities. While I expect there'll be a hearing
somewhere, I don't expect that any formal charges will be brought
against anybody.
NRAMA: Who was
morally responsible? Goliath was by the letter of the law a criminal,
but Reed, Tony and Hank created a weapon they could not control…
MM: Morally,
it's a slightly different story because, in their hearts, the heroes
don't see the anti-reg guys as criminals. They used to send them
Christmas cards or just hang out with them. Morally, it's very complex
and that's what this issue and the remaining issues in the series
are about.
TB:
I think that's a question for the readers to decide, and for the
characters to grapple with.
NRAMA: Over to
you Tom - taking what's been said into consideration, can the "heroes"
that created and unleashed Thor still be thought of as "heroes?"
Aren't there "villains" who've done less and spent time in jail?
TB: The heroes
who created and unleashed Thor were acting in the capacity of fully
deputized agents of the law and the government-they're not the guys
who were violating the law in this situation. On a moral level,
there's plenty of room for introspection, and for questioning. It's
all in how any given reader chooses to define a hero. And the reality
is that people make mistakes-certainly nobody fielded Thor with
the intention of events spiraling the way they did. Remember, Iron
Man set up this sting in order to have a civil conversation with
Cap, and Cap's the guy who threw the first punch.
NRAMA: Mark -
why did Goliath have to die? Couldn't this battle have held the
same meaning without his death?
MM: I don't think
so, no. That said, I hate the promise of big deaths in events. It's
so cheap. It's just bad writing. We could have had Cap, Spidey and
Iron Man all dead in a double-page spread here, but you know
they're back in six months. It's meaningless and just a re-heat
of the death of Phoenix, Supergirl or The Flash. I wanted a death
to mean something and even a relatively little known character should
be treated with respect, his death having story ramifications. I've
said this before, but why kill characters unnecessarily? Obviously,
they have to die sometime, but every character is somebody's favorite
and I'd be pissed off if I saw my favorite character killed off
in a panel followed by no repercussions. It's just cheap. I've said
this a million times, but don't buy this series looking for big
deaths. You can shake things up and do something new without resorting
to that.
NRAMA: In that
vein, and with all that has been said of presenting both sides,
can you honestly say now that the Pro-Registration side isn't being
shown in a negative light? Can you expect readers at this point,
to be backing the Registration side?
MM: Yes. And
as the series continues I think you'll see more of that, especially
in the main series. Personally, I would support Tony and I think
most people in the real world would too.
TB: We're not
deliberately presenting the Pro-Registration side in a negative
way. Mistakes are made, on both sides. I do think that the average
reader's sympathy is more likely to be with the Anti-Registration
side to start with, as I've been saying all along. It's human nature
to root for the underdog. And, in point of fact, none of the heroes
specifically unleash Thor on the Anti-Reg guys (though he's in place
to be an element from the start). That said, in the opening of Civil
War #5 you'll get a much better sense of Tony's vision of the
future, and what he, Reed and Hank have been working on.
NRAMA: By the
same token - the man on the street of the Marvel Universe…how's
he going to hear about this news, and how would you expect he'll
react?
MM: Er, buy issues
#5-#7, true believer!!
TB: I expect
that the news in the Marvel U will report that Goliath was killed
while resisting arrest, and it'll be seen as tragic, but that's
about it. He and the rest of Cap's crew were asked to talk peacefully,
responded with violence, and things went the way they did. It's
a shame, but I think the average man on the street is going to feel
that Goliath brought it on himself, by choosing to operate in violation
of federal law, and in opposition to the will of the people as well.
After Stamford, this could well be seen as another example of unchecked
superhuman aggression (on both sides).
 NRAMA:
Back in the Avengers lab - what the hell is Reed doing to Thor?
Wouldn't he have appropriate technology to get inside Thor's head
without digging into his skull through his ear?
MM: Well, if
you can show me the blueprints for such a device I will pass them
along to Professor Richards.
NRAMA: Come on
though - this guy can equip a DeSoto to cruise into the Negative
Zone for God's sake…is showing him doing it this way - with the
blood - done for the purpose of saying things that the dialog isn't?
I mean…let's be honest here - good scientists don't jam things
in ears of living creatures - that's something evil scientists
do…what view of Reed should readers be coming away with at this
point?
MM: I love Reed,
but can see his coldness sometimes. I can see why Sue sticks with
him.
NRAMA: Because every
part of his stretches?
MM: No, no, no.
Because the good far outweighs his faults. But even as far back
as the first few issues of Fantastic Four you can see that
Reed easily becomes obsessed with work to the detriment of the people
he loves. Even their origin suggests that as he steals a rocket
and endangers the lives of his friends. He's absolutely noble, but
it's tinged with a weird, scientific coldness that's sent Sue fumbling
into Namor's trunks more than once in the past. This is what makes
the Marvel characters very real to me. They're flawed heroes. They
do their best and what they think is right, but not everyone agrees
with them.
TB: Or - more
technically, the panel description from the script reads:
2/ Focus
on a group of these technicians, led by Reed Richards, as they work
on an unconscious Thor. He's out cold and lying on his side as he's
being tweaked by Reed and his little crew. His hammer is off to
one side, resting on a countertop. A side panel has been removed
from its head so that we can see the high-tech innards of it.
Make no mistake - it's meant to be a creepy sequence, in that this
is where the readers become aware of exactly what it is that Tony
and Reed and Hank have done at this point. But the ear-probe and
the blood are all details that Steve threw into the sequence; presumably
to make it even more creepy and unsettling-so don't read too much
into them.
NRAMA: Since
it's said that he's had skin and hair samples from the very beginning,
in your mind, how long has Tony had a) a plan in mind to create
a clone of Thor; and b) an actual honest to (some) god clone of
Thor running around? Is this something he whipped up because he
needed a "gun" for the Civil War, or if you dug deep enough in Tony's
basement any time in the past ten-ish years, you would've found
Clone Thor, or, "Clor?"
MM:
As you'll have seen in Ultimates, I've always had Tony as
a guy who thinks 40 steps ahead. He's the kind of guy who has a
plan for the human race mapped out on the back of an envelope he's
been carrying since he was 12. He has his own demons and his own
faults, but he's a Utopian and I like to think of him as a guy who's
had a loose plan for all this since he saw his first mutant.
TB:
I think Tony is a guy who's intrigued by the workings of the universe,
and how things fit together. And he's also a self-made man and a
self-proclaimed futurist who made his fortune by being able to extrapolate
the future. So I think he was fascinated by Thor, and his claims
of divinity, and that was something he'd want to study and explore
at some point. But while Tony has been seen to have made preparations
in anticipation of a future need before, I don't think he actually
created a clone of Thor until he and Reed and Hank came up with
their Fifty State Initiative plan. In all honesty, without all three
of them working together, and having the resources of SHIELD and
the government at their disposal, I don't know that they could have
done it otherwise.
NRAMA: Have we
seen the last of this cloned Thor?
MM: Definitely
not. He's a major player in the series and hopefully in the MU afterwards.
He's a big part of The Initiative idea I came up with and which
will be a big part of the post-Civil War Marvel Universe.
NRAMA: Can we
call him Clor? Does he have a real name? Will he ever?
TB: He doesn't
at the moment, but he will. But we can call him Clor for these purposes.
And as Mark said - this is not the end of Clor, not by a long shot.
NRAMA: Peter's
question to Hank about choosing the right side…not that he's sleeping
much these days, but will he be tossing and turning all night over
this one?
TB: Peter's definitely
got some major qualms with the way events are laying out, and the
choices he's made, and he'll be grappling with some of these issues
in Amazing Spider-Man next week.
 NRAMA:
Moving on to the Anti-Reg side licking their wounds - those deserting
Cap's side - what's going on in their heads? Is it accurate to say
that there's no real swing to a position of "Tony's right!' but
rather, "Holy shit! They killed Goliath, and I'm next!"?
MM: Goliath dying
was a wake-up call. It jolted them into realizing this isn't going
to plan and Cap is just a human being. He's as fallible as any of
us now and it took Goliath dying for people to realize that. Cap's
an old man. He was born prior to 1920, remember, so he might not
be best to decide what's right for superheroes in the 21st Century.
Some of his guys just finally come to realize that. I love him to
death, but he's starting to seem like The Lone Ranger to some of
these kids.
TB: I think it
depends on who you're talking about. Nighthawk is clearly concerned
about the escalation of violence between the two factions, and what
might happen to himself or to others if they continue. In the case
of Stature, she and the other Young Avengers simply wanted to continue
being super heroes without registering, and they were recruited
into Cap's fold very much on the fly, and perhaps without giving
the situation all that much though. This battle was in all likelihood
the most traumatic event that Cassie has ever experiences, akin
to being on the battlefield during a war for the first time. And,
as she says, she doesn't do this to fight cops or other super heroes.
NRAMA: You could
almost argue that with the death of Goliath, Tony's side won a victory
that has roots that will continue to grow. After all - a show of
lethal force undermines confidence in one's own cause and chances
of victory - Cap's undoubtedly seen this kind of thing before, given
his years in the service. Can one assume that Tony knows this as
well? Perhaps that one of the anti-Registration heroes "needed"
to die in battle in his eyes, or is that taking Tony's motivations
and tactics too far afield?
TB: Tony clearly
didn't intend for anybody to get killed during the battle, especially
not deliberately. Nor did Cap. These guys are veterans of a thousand
battles, but at the same time, battles are intense, and there are
consequences.
 NRAMA:
Fair enough. Okay then - any hints as to who the guy on the fire
escape is, other than not Peter Parker (wrong eye color)
and not Nick Fury (wrong number of eyes)?
MM: That guy
is the intro to my favorite part of the series. This is where things
take a weird turn and the book just wrote itself for those scenes.
It sets up something really cool which you'll hopefully enjoy by
the end of issue seven, but this character made the series much,
much richer for me.
TB: It's not
Irving Forbush. Probably.
NRAMA: Geeking
out again - why couldn't they shrink Goliath? Short version? Pym
particles require living tissue?
MM: Again, if
you could pass along the technical info I'll make sure they get
it next time, Mister Brady!
 TB:
Actually, and in my best Marvel Universe Handbook voice: having
died at giant-size, and with the biological changes that go on in
a human body after life has left, such as rigor mortis and the like,
Goliath's body could not have been returned to its normal size by
Pym Particle exposure again without destroying it-it would have
torn itself apart under the strain. They could perhaps have done
so later on, but by that point it would have begun to smell, so…
NRAMA: Better
to go out remembered as Goliath, rather than Smelly Puddle Man?
TB: Right.
NRAMA: Back to
the thing about showing Reed digging into Thor's head - by showing
Goliath stuck in full size in death…this is the execution
of the elephant back in the early 1900s - the freakshow - again,
are readers supposed to have sympathy for the Pro-Reg side? Editorially
speaking, showing, rather than telling about the funeral was a decision
- what was the motive behind it?
MM: The series
has been all about the ramifications of violence and how they can
make something positive from tragic events so the funeral seemed
like an important part of that. It's a real turning point for Tony
too. This takes him to his nadir (and we see guys like even Hank
wavering given his friendship with Goliath), but the woman who initiated
the whole thing with her son dying gives him the strength to carry
on. Things get a lot easier for Tony after this.
TB: I think you're
maybe looking for deeper motivations than there were-which is fine,
it's nice that the series inspires such scrutiny. A hero in the
Marvel Universe was killed, so it only seemed right and proper to
give him a burial. I think that, without the funeral, Goliath's
death would have felt much more like stunting-that we would only
have been treating him as an action figure, rather than as a character.
And I think it says something about Tony and his side - that he
arranges and pays for the funeral. He still recognizes Goliath as
a hero, and celebrates his good works, even after their philosophical
split and the events that caused his demise.
NRAMA: Moving
on to another ramification of that battle: Sue's decision - she's
been mad at Reed before, and has left on an occasion or two. This
time - as far as she's concerned…final? This is it? The Fantastic
Four are no more? Or was this more her version of an ultimatum,
that is, as long as he's traveling this road, he can't have her?
MM: Yes, there
will be no nookie until he stops hanging out with Tony. Sue wields
a powerful weapon and I'd crumble in minutes.
NRAMA: I didn't
mean nookie…Tom, can you help us out here?
TB: It's much
more the latter - an ultimatum. Sue still loves Reed, but she can't
stand by his side when he's doing things that she feels are morally
wrong.
 NRAMA:
Geeking one final time…nice touch with her invisible umbrella and
Torch's flame…whose idea were those?
MM: Steve McNiven.
He's fantastic. Absolutely brilliant. I love that guy. The stuff
he brings to this book is 90% of the reason the book is such a success.
I just try my best not to distract the reader too much from the
beautiful artwork. Seriously, he's amazing. The next Jim Lee in
terms of popularity, I think. His style is obviously very different,
but he just pushes all the right buttons for readers.
TB: Yep - Steve
McNiven added them on his own. He's smart. See? Worth the wait.
NRAMA: Back in
Avengers Tower, Reed says that the balance has tipped in favor of
Cap after "this." Meaning what, the loss of Thor?
MM: No, all the
other heroes who stayed out of this coming over to Cap's side. Thor
killing Goliath scared the Hell out of Cap's people, but also radicalized
a lot of people we'll see in the next couple of issues, kind of
like the way some Muslims were suddenly radicalized when Iraq got
a little shock and awe. People who would have remained neutral suddenly
get very, very angry.
TB: Right. As
we kind of get a sense of in the crowd scenes, and as Cap says fairly
directly, the death of Goliath has send an influx of supporters
his way.
NRAMA: And the
50 State Initiative - was that the guy in the vial, and "Frankensteins"
that they're growing? Does the Pro-Reg have a full scale cloning
program going?
MM: The 50 State
Initiative was the first thing I came up with for this series. It
was a creator-owned series I was developing but, being an idiot,
I've given it to Marvel for free because it works really well with
the plan I had for reshaping the Marvel Universe. I don't want to
say too much about what this is yet, but it's certainly not one
single hero.
TB: The Fifty
State Initiative is really the heart of Tony, Reed and Hank's plan
for the superhuman community post-Stamford.
NRAMA: Er, how
can they be sided with the administration (given that it's mapped
to ours, and their President looks a lot like ours) if they're got
clones and are growing more every day?
TB: The first
person they cloned was the President. Shh!
 NRAMA:
And the big reveal for this issue - the new Thunderbolts? Why'd
they name them that?
MM: Part of the
50 State Initiative involves writers, artists and scientists getting
together and rebranding old names and heroes for the 21st century.
The new Thunderbolts is the first of these, upgraded to be Avengers
class. My idea for these guys is to do an anti-Avengers in a sense.
Having the New Avengers as all the big names of the hero community
was a huge success so having a Thunderbolts where all the top villains,
real world class guys, are coerced into working as a hero team seemed
like an obvious idea.
TB: And because
they're still the Thunderbolts. This whole team is an outgrowth
of what we've seen in the Thunderbolts tie-in issues of Civil
War, with a veritable army of super-villains being arrested
and recruited into the team's ranks. And as you can see in that
last page image, Songbird is there among this particular group of
Thunderbolts, to provide oversight and support.
NRAMA: Still
- and setting things up for issue #5 - that the Pro Reg side would
go all "Dirty Dozen" on the Anti Reg side…should we be reading a
certain, and strong (albeit quiet) level of desperation on the part
of the Pre-Reg side here?
MM: Oh yes. Definitely.
But they have more plans up their sleeves.
TB: This Thunderbolts
plan is also a part of the Fifty State Initiative, and was being
put into place regardless of the Anti-Reg guys' existence. It's
just that now, with their manpower becoming stretched, the Pro-Reg
guys feel a need to roll it out and test it in the field perhaps
a bit more quickly than they'd have liked.
NRAMA: Wrapping
things up then - teases for issue #5? As the cover has already been
released and shows the Pro-Reg villains chasing Spider-Man, it's
obvious that he switches sides…anyone else going with him?
MM: All I can
right now is that it's quite good.
TB:
Well, you should never count your chickens. There's nothing that
says Spidey will turn per se, nor anything that says that, even
if he should decide to change his stance, that he'll be able to
make it out of the building. But the one tease-thing that I can
tell you is that you'll find out the identity of Ski-Mask Man.
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