NEWSARAMA.COM: BEHIND THE PAGES: GEOFF JOHNS, PART 2

by Vaneta Rogers

When we last left Geoff Johns, he had just told us about how, after hitting California right after college, he’s landed a job with Richard (Superman: The Movie) Donner, and had begun writing comics more and more…until…well, he was going to have to have a talk with his boss about moving on.

NRAMA: At what point did you finally decide that you needed to walk away from the Donner job? That had to be a tough decision, not only because of your friendship with him, but it could have represented leaving your film career behind for comics.

GJ: I got more and more into writing. I was doing JSA now full-time because Goyer was leaving, and I was doing Flash. And Hawkman was coming up. And just at that time, Donner was going to go take a year off before he directed his new movie. They were moving offices from Warner Bros. And I wanted to write TV and film, and I just felt it was time to "graduate." I'd been there four years as an assistant, and I felt I had kind of graduated. It was like my second college.

I remember sitting down at the table and saying to Donner, "I've got to talk to you." And he knew already, because he knew what I was doing. And he was really happy, because he loves comic books. And he taught me so much, so he was a real mentor to me.

NRAMA: What year was this?

GJ: I think it was 2001. Right before Hawkman came out.

I still talk to Donner a lot, and I see him for lunch or dinner every couple of months. He's just an awesome guy. I spent so much time with him over the years. And it was really great to have something like that in my life. The film business can be crazy. But here was a great guy, and one of the best directors, in my opinion, in Hollywood. And he creates so many movies and touches so many people, like Superman and Goonies and all the Lethal Weapon films.

It was really hard leaving, because I didn't want to go, but I knew that if I wanted to keep doing other things, I had to.

NRAMA: We know where your comics career went from there, writing a few minis and Avengers for Marvel as well as several more titles for DC and a couple independent stories. But you were still writing for TV and film throughout that time?

GJ: GJ: When I left Donner's office, I started writing a lot more. I started writing comics full time. I wrote a few pilots. A couple for Fox. I worked on a few pilots with my good friend, Matt Senreich, who is the co-creator of Robot Chicken along with man-of-all-trades-and-talents Seth Green on Cartoon Network. A lot of my friends I hang out with work on that show. If anyone hasn't seen it, go set your TIVO now. Or get the DVD in March. As Matt pitches it, it's "Saturday Night Live with Action Figures" -- but it's funnier. And SNL is actually pretty good right now. But I'm psyched for them because Robot Chicken is damn funny and it's already rabid following is growing. So anyway I started just writing comics and outside comics, and it's pretty much been all about that for the last four years.

NRAMA: You did comics part-time for quite awhile there. At what point did you realize you were making a living at comics writing?

GJ: Right when I hit Hawkman, I was. Anyone will tell you, being a director's assistant; you don't make a lot of money. And if you want to be rich, don't work in comic books, because you're not going to get rich off comics either. You've got to do it because you love it. And that's the great thing about it. Pretty much anyone that does it, loves it. There are really few exceptions of people who are doing it for any other reason. With comics, you have to love it.

NRAMA: How would you describe your writing style?

GJ: I have no idea.

NRAMA: Oh, c'mon, Geoff. You read comics. You know you write a little differently from other people. You must have elements in your writing that you recognize as unique to your style.

GJ: I don't know. I hope I can touch the goods and the bads. And by that, I mean that I can reach in and grab a heroic moment inside a hero, and really make that hero shine. Or I can do the same with a villain, and really make that villain nasty. That's what I like to do the most, is find out what makes these characters tick and show it in either a great, heroic moment or a more hideous, villainous moment.

At least that's what I try to do. I don't really know how to describe my style, though. I like playing in the DC universe -- the shared universes -- and the Marvel universe, I liked playing there briefly.

NRAMA: It's not surprising you mention the shared universes. You seem to flourish by not only telling your own stories, but doing tie-ins and spin-offs and brand new stories that are inspired by things that start in other comics in the same universe.

GJ: It's fun to be in a universe with other people. I like working with people, and I like people. So I like communicating with others. I really like working with Kurt on Superman. I really like talking to [editor] Matt Idelson on Superman and doing conference calls. I just really like working with people on stories and characters. Why do we do this? To feel good about ourselves? We do it because we love it, and we love working with people who love it.

NRAMA: You're known to a lot of readers as the man who "fixes" characters. From your stint on Hawkman where you dealt with his convoluted history, to your work on piecing together Hal Jordan's backstory, to your most recent fix of Power Girl's history. Are you OK with the fact that you've been labeled as Mr. Fix-It?

GJ: Sure.

NRAMA: What do you think draws you to those types of characters and stories?

GJ: I like streamlining characters while still utilizing everything that has come before. That's what we're going to do with Doom Patrol. Add some new members to it, while taking everything that others have done. That's what we're doing in the next Teen Titans. And the goal for 2006 is new stuff. New takes on characters, new villains, new heroes, new DCU while at the same time keeping it all tied to the iconic element within.

NRAMA: Ah, that's something to get the boards going. Is that the only tease we'll get about those books?

GJ: Yep.

NRAMA: You've worked with a lot of writers on comics. But outside comic books, what writers have influenced you, either directly through collaboration or indirectly by just reading their stuff?

GJ: Well, outside comic books, I learned a lot about writing from Brian Helgeland and Richard Donner, because I spent so much time with them.

NRAMA: You mean, in developing scripts?

GJ: Yeah. And just, like, talking about story. That was the first time I actually sat down with people and talked about story. It wasn’t analyzing another story. It was creating one. And I really learned a lot from them. And then, obviously, like every other writer, I make mistakes, and I try and learn from them.

NRAMA: You probably notice your mistakes more than anyone else.

GJ: Well you know, when we have a bad week, unfortunately it turns into a comic book that's not so good. You know, other people say, "Oh, this week's been awful. I screwed up at work and did this and that." Everyone does that. But unfortunately, when you're a comic book writer, it turns into an issue. And nobody wants that, and everyone's always trying to do their best. But I'm always just trying to get better. That's always a goal of mine. I always want to get better.

NRAMA: What's your favorite issue that you've written?

GJ: My favorite one that I've done myself?

NRAMA: Yeah.

GJ: Man. I really like Green Lantern: Rebirth #4. With Green Arrow trying to use the ring and Hal coming back at the end. I really like that issue. Ethan did a kick-ass job on that too. There are a lot of them I like. But I really like that one. That's probably my favorite.

NRAMA: It probably moves year to year, if you really are always striving to improve.

GJ: It changes all the time.

NRAMA: You've talked about your early work not being good in interviews before. Are you pretty critical of your early stuff?

GJ: I'm critical of all my work. I know when issues don't work. You're kind of like, hey, it doesn't work. And you try to figure out why. If you stop and look at why it didn't work, you can figure out how to do it better next time. You have to. No one expects a baseball player to hit a home run every time he’s up to the bat, but you have to try. And if you don’t, figure out why.

NRAMA: Do you have a comic book issue or title that someone else has written that you treasure?

GJ: I love John Ostrander's Suicide Squad. I mean, that's why I love villains. He was like, "Hey, let's see what we can do with villains." I was like, "Yeah! Why doesn't anybody else do this? Why doesn't anybody else crack them open and use them and make them actually competent and formidable?" I think Ostrander's the most underrated writer that was around in the '80s and '90s. I'd love to see him do more stuff. His Spectre run was amazing too. I just think he's a terrific writer.

NRAMA: That idea of examining villains was certainly something you utilized in Flash as you defined the rogues gallery in that title.

GJ: Yeah. I took a look at them. All you have to do is crack them open and look at them and say, they're not just guys running around and robbing banks. There's something else there.

Like Hector Hammond. I really like Hector Hammond because I like cracking him open and saying, "Why does he do what he does?"

NRAMA: You want the motivation.

GJ: I want the motivation. I want to know why they are the way they are. The motivation doesn't have to be a morally justifiable one. It shouldn't be morally justifiable with the villains on some occasions. Some are just crazy. Some are messed up. Hector Hammond is definitely obsessed with wishing he had the stones and the moral fiber and the guts to be who Hal Jordan is. And he'll say, "It's because I'm deformed like this that I can't do what you do." But in his truth, he knows that even if he had the body, he couldn't do it. And he loves living vicariously through Hal Jordan. He thinks it's wonderful. Like watching the best TV show in the world. And he wishes that was him.

NRAMA: It seems, talking to you, that you could talk about any character and get excited about that person. Do you really love every character?

GJ: There are very few characters I wouldn't enjoy talking about. Like Hector Hammond -- the fact that I could get on the phone with Ethan and Peter tomorrow for about a half an hour and just talk about Hector Hammond. It's fun when you can get into these characters that much. But I mean, Ethan makes Hector Hammond work. Talking and scripting are just getting you halfway there. Your partner in crime, the great artists I’ve gotten to work with, are what make the story work. They are the director.

The friendship between Green Lantern and Green Arrow works because of Carlos [Pacheco]. The tension between Robin and the Titans in the upcoming issues works because of Tony [Daniel]. And Crisis would not work without Phil. It just wouldn’t. Phil’s scenes, especially in #5, are stunning.

NRAMA: So even your development of the characters relies on the art?

GJ: Absolutely. They are the director. When a comic is good, it’s because you’re collaborating with guys that you really connect with. When you find those guys that you click with, it's the best. When you’re working with an editor you connect with and all three of you are in sync, it’s the best. I’ve been very fortunate because I work with the best editors and artists – they’re also great people – and collaborative. And I like to be in communication with everyone I work with.

NRAMA: Do you try to come back to people that you click with?

GJ: Yeah, I like to. I wish Scott Kolins wasn't exclusive to Marvel.

NRAMA: Those crazy exclusives. What's up with that?

GJ: There’s a lot of guys I really wish I could work with. Most are locked up under exclusives though, and that’s how it goes.

NRAMA: Is there any character you don't think you could ever write?

GJ: I mean, I don't want to say I'd never write somebody, because who knows? But there are characters that I'd probably have to spend an awful lot of time getting to know. And I might not get it right on the first time out.

NRAMA: You did an interview a few years back where you answered that same question by saying Power Girl. You said she was a character you weren't sure if you could write. And look at you now. You defined her character in JSA: Classified last year.

GJ: Oh, yeah. I didn't think I would like Power Girl way back when. People seemed to like her a lot. And we needed another female member in JSA, so I said, well, Power Girl fits the bill. Let me throw her in here and see how she works. And I fell in love with her. And even more so after I did the JSA: Classified arc. I think she's an awesome character. And sometimes it just takes you spending time with it.

It's like people. It's really like when you first meet somebody. You might be rubbed the wrong way. But the more you get to know them and talk to them; suddenly you're like, "Wow. This person's really interesting," or "I really like this person" or whatever. It's the same way working with these characters. You get to know them; you find out who they are to you and let them say something to you. And Power Girl was a big example of that for me.

NRAMA: Any other characters going forward that are like that for you?

GJ: There are other characters. Like, I don't get Thor. I just don't get him that well. I liked using him briefly in Avengers, but I don't understand his psyche. So he would be another one that, if I had a chance to get to Thor, he would be one that I'd have to spend some time with and see if I could get into him. I liked what Dan Jurgens did, grounding him with a mortal form again. I’d like to see Dr. Blake or something. Just so I could relate to him a little better. Or maybe Dr. Blake is real and he’s trying to find Thor. Would it be about Thor trying to earn his right back to Asgard? Like a pick journey to earn his father’s acceptance again. Get the Gray Gargoyle. The Wrecker. Actually, Thor would be fun.

NRAMA: Ha! Look at you go. Maybe you should talk to your office-mates about Marvel characters like Thor, since they’re writing for the company. Speaking of them, most people are aware you share your office with a couple other writers. How did that happen?

GJ: Jeph [Loeb] and Allan [Heinberg]. They're two friends really. And great writers, so it just kind of went from there.

NRAMA: You collaborated with Allan Heinberg on JLA. Is that something that you'd like to do going forward, since they're just down the hall?

GJ: Well, it's hard when Jeph's at Marvel.

NRAMA: Yeah, those crazy exclusives again.

GJ: But he’s going to kick ass there. Jeph is Jerry Bruckheimer. And Allan's really busy. He can't do much more than one book. We just did that one for fun. I'd love to work with Allan again on something. Allan is a brilliant human being. His love and care for these heroes is evident if you’ve ever spoken to him.

We're all working on that Superman/Batman #26 [More on this later this week here at Newsarma.com], which is cool.

NRAMA: Yeah, that's the issue Jeph Loeb’s son, Sam, was working on when he died. A lot of creators have stepped up to the plate to help finish that one.

GJ: Yeah. Sam was an incredible kid. Just light years ahead of most of the adults I know. Everyone who knew him misses him. I’m glad we can work on Superman/Batman #26 together.

NRAMA: You said earlier that it took you four days to write each issue of Stars and STRIPE. But how long does it take you now to write one comic book issue?

GJ: Depends on what it is.

NRAMA: OK, Geoff. Let me rephrase that question. How long does it take you to write an issue that isn't Infinite Crisis?

GJ: OK. An average issue takes me about a week to write. But that means talking about it with the editor like a month ahead of time and letting it sit in your head and figuring it out.

NRAMA: You also mentioned that you love to talk with other creators about stories in the DC universe. Have you been collaborating a lot now that Crisis is basically finished?

GJ: We're just trying to push everything forward and create new stuff. We're all working on our own monthly books at this point to push out new concepts, new spins, new characters, and polishing everybody we already have along the way. It's a group effort, with everyone working at the DCU.

NRAMA: Now that we've gotten a look at Infinite Crisis #4, it's apparent the amount of planning that must have gone into this whole thing. It's tied together a lot more than any of the readers knew before this last issue. All the minis, all the tie-ins...

GJ: ...they all go back to that tower. They're all about bringing back Earth 2…for a start. It all goes together. So, yeah, there's a lot of planning there.

NRAMA: Many of the "how did that happen?" questions have been answered now, and as the big picture emerges, you can see the coordination that took place.

GJ: There was a lot of coordination, but it's great because that part of the coordination is over. Now, Crisis can finish out nice and clean. And the DCU jumps one year ahead. So we're in the next era. In our places, we're already there. The creators -- our world's already there.

NRAMA: What issues are you working on right now?

GJ: Teen Titans #35 is done, and I'll be finishing up GL #11 probably this week. And Crisis -- the big finale of Crisis will be wrapped up at any moment.

NRAMA: That's got to be a bear.

GJ: It is. Crisis takes me days to plot it. And it takes weeks to write it.

NRAMA: Weeks?

GJ: It takes weeks. Like that Superboy scene in #4 -- there are two pages in there that Eddie will tell you the stories of how long it took me. The scene where he loses it took me a long time to figure out how to do it. I have at least five versions of it. Maybe we’ll put them in the trade. Even different people died it the scene.

Phil has been my hero – and thank God for Eddie and [assistant editor] Jeanine [Schaefer]. Eddie has done an amazing job of holding it all together, and this is not easy. He’s got great instincts on the team dynamic – he and Brad [Meltzer] and Ed [Benes] on JLA is going to rock.

NRAMA: You said the Superboy scene took an especially long time to write. Why was that one tough? Did you know it was going to be such a challenge?

GJ: No, I didn't. I knew it would be a difficult scene to write, but that was the last piece that really had to be re-written. It just didn't work for me, and I didn't know why. And I finally figured it out. It just took time.

NRAMA: Overall, did you have any clue how long it would take to do each issue of this miniseries?

GJ: I knew it would be huge. I didn't know it would be as time-intensive as it is. It really is time-intensive. I've got like, maps of where characters are. But I'm really happy with it. I think it's coming together pretty well. And I think Issue #7 is a really fun, insane issue.

NRAMA: Uh oh.

GJ: Yeah. I want this to end nicely.

NRAMA: The next two issues kind of lead up to that one?

GJ: Issue #5 is kind of the calm before the storm, as Mr. Terrific says on Page 1. And then Issue #6 and 7 are kind of wall-to-wall action.

NRAMA: It gets bigger?

GJ: Just a bit.

NRAMA: You were reading comics during Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1985. Did you ever dream you would be writing the same type of huge, universe-encompassing story -- basically the sequel to it?

GJ: No, it never crossed my mind that I would do a sequel to it.

NRAMA: So when you were approached to do it...

GJ: ... my first instinct was, "Yes." Marv [Wolfman] and George did an amazing thing – they invented the “universe” story. But, yeah, I thought we could do something as a sequel, but different.

NRAMA: But it had to be intimidating as hell.

GJ: I really wanted to do it. But then my next instinct was like, "holy ----!" I was thinking, this is going to be crazy. How am I going to do it? The answer was – not alone. With Dan [Didio], Eddie, Greg [Rucka], Judd [Winick], everyone coming in and brainstorming.

NRAMA: Having the majority of the issues written, is it safe to say this is your favorite project to date?

GJ: It’s near the top.

NRAMA: What parts of the story were you most attracted to?

GJ: The one thing I was really happy about is that we got this centered around Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, and the returning heroes. And I also liked the fact that it's about what it takes to be a hero, and how it's not always easy to be a hero. And how they're all flawed and human characters. And how you have to get beyond those flaws and figure it out and stand on your own two feet. I like making it about what it takes to be a hero and how it’s not black and white.

And I think it's also about how you can totally misjudge it. I think Superboy Prime completely misjudged what these superheroes were doing, being on this earth, and how hard it can be. My favorite bit is when he stutters at Conner Kent. Because this whole time he's in the zone, he's thinking, "These guys are idiots. They're awful." Conner wasn't doing anything, and so Superboy Prime's thinking he's weak. And then when he shows up, he's almost nervous talking to this kid. And Conner says to him, "Stop mumbling. I can't understand you." And the kid suddenly realizes it's not that easy. He realizes that you've got to be there to understand what they've been through.

At the same time, I think our heroes have to face up to the mistakes they've made.

NRAMA: We've seen quite a few of those mistakes exposed recently. But the characters are starting to own up to them now.

GJ: I think Batman has.

NRAMA: Definitely in issue #4.

GJ: Batman is already on his way. Wonder Woman has some nice moments in Issue #5. And Superman…he’s going to kick ass.

NRAMA: With the huge readership of these issues, there are all kinds of people -- particularly on the internet -- who have reacted with their own theories, constant questions and early reactions. Sometimes it's got to be frustrating to you when you know the answer to their concern or inquiry is coming in the next issue if they'd just be patient. Off the top of your head, what is something you've seen that frustrated you because it was so far off the mark?

GJ: Frustrating? Well, I don't know all the chatter that people are talking about. I know some of it from my boards. I’m happy with the reactions. You should be outraged when you're reading something where you should be outraged. You should be cheering for the heroes when you want to cheer for the heroes. You should be feeling an emotion when Batman talks to Nightwing. When Wonder Woman sacrifices the island and it disappears for her. The Flashes -- you should be going, "Hell, yeah, Bart Allen!" when he slams into Superboy Prime and takes care of him.

NRAMA: Yeah, but the big line there was, "Grandpa?" Aaaah!

GJ: Yeah, you should feel for that! That's the thing -- I want to make this an emotional ride along with everything else. There's got to be a lot of action and a huge epic scope, and a lot going on, but I also want you to feel something. Like when Superboy Prime loses it, and he says, "You're ruining me!" -- you look at this pathetic guy with blood all over his hands. You don't know -- do you pity him? Do you fear him? Do you hate him?

And those are the types of reactions I want to you to experience. So overall, I’m very, very happy. A story that so many people read will never be loved by everyone, but a lot of people seem to be enjoying the ride.

NRAMA: Switching gears now to after Infinite Crisis, how has it been working on 52? That's got to have been a really different experience for you as a writer, working in such close collaboration with multiple writers on a weekly comic book series. How far along are you guys on that?

GJ: I think we're on Issue #14 now?

NRAMA: Editor Steve Wacker recently said you guys break up the pages for each issue between yourself and co-writers Mark Waid, Greg Rucka and Grant Morrison, then send them to Keith Giffen. So you share the writing duties?

GJ: Oh, yeah. Every issue, we collaborate.

NRAMA: That’s a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Actually, with a line-up like that, most readers would throw out the term “cooks” and say “master chefs.” Are all of you really working together that much on every single one of these weekly issues?

GJ: We're literally working on every issue together. But it's really fun. It's very different than anything people have seen. Grant described it as a TV show, and it really is. It's more like a TV show following characters every week. I get to work with Grant, Mark, Keith and Greg -- and Steve has a tremendous line of artistic talent starting with Joe Bennett. Everyone brings something very different to the table. Mark just wrote this scene that blew me away and it was very much in his style. Just very fun… a twist on a convention. I can’t wait until people read #12.

NRAMA: Is it kind of like Lost, where every episode only covers maybe one day? Although I guess with 52, since the 52 issues are supposed to cover exactly one year's time, then it would be roughly a week's time per issue?

GJ: Well, some issues are an hour, some are a week, and some are two days. But the key to it is that every issue takes place within a week.

NRAMA: Besides the element of real time, what else is different about it?

GJ: It's very character driven. It touches on different corners of the DCU. There's a big, high concept behind it that, you know, we won't get into yet. But I'm really happy with it.

NRAMA: Beyond 52, there's no doubt we can count on you being in comics for awhile because of your DC exclusive...

GJ: Yeah, I've got another, what, two years left? April 2008.

NRAMA: Yep -- two more years. But you've also had some recent TV work, writing the Blade television series for Spike TV with David Goyer. How was that experience?

GJ: Oh, it's been awesome. It's been a lot of fun. I got to work with Goyer again. Shooting it was fun. I haven't seen final effects yet. I think another month or two.

NRAMA: Will comics fans be satisfied with it?

GJ: I hope so. It's TV, so our budget is like, one-tenth of the movies. So it's more stripped down. And it's ... well, I don't think I can really say anything about it yet. I mean, if you’re all willing to view it as a television show... But if you’re looking for the movie, we couldn’t do the movie effects. It's just not in the budget. But there are some cool elements in the series that delve into Blade’s past, like “Year One” stuff.

NRAMA: Well this leads to the next question that fans will want to know. You share offices with two people who work on television, and you're experiencing some success in TV now, even writing an upcoming episode of JLU about Hawkman. After all, that's what you wanted to do when you moved out there to sunny California, and it's why you went to college and spent so much time working with Richard Donner. Point blank: Are we going to lose you to television and film?

GJ: I love comics too much.

NRAMA: What is it about comics that makes it so unique compared to TV? What makes it something that you’d never leave behind?

GJ: It's everything about it. The characters, the universes. And you know what is really cool about comics? Have you ever been at a restaurant or somewhere and you see someone with a comic book, and you say, "Oh, you read comics?" And they say, "Yeah." And you say, "I do too!" You're instantly connected to that person.

NRAMA: That's so true. Even at a business meeting, you'll see a guy with a Superman symbol in his tie, or at the gym, there's somebody wearing a comic book T-shirt, and you can't help but start talking.

GJ: And you don't do that with TV. "Oh, you watch TV?? I watch TV too!" That just doesn't happen.

But there's something about people who read comics. I don't care what kind of comics you read, whether they're superhero comics or not, whether they're DC or Marvel or Image or Dark Horse, Superman or Batman -- when you meet one person who reads comics, you're instantly connected to them. You can fight about it all day long on the internet, but in real life, when you meet someone who reads comics, you know. You both immediately know. You know Wednesday. The feeling you get before you go in the store on Wednesday. And that feeling when you go home, and you've got the big stack of comics to read.

NRAMA: Connecting with other readers is an experience that is pretty unique to this industry. But do you feel that kind of connection as a writer?

GJ: I do. I love comics because it is a smaller business, and it's a cool world that, as a writer, you get to jump into. The universes are something that you just can't compare to anything in another medium. The DC universe, as Grant always says, is a living, breathing, evolving thing. And you look at it 20 years ago and now, and see all kinds of changes. And when we look at it 20 years from now, it'll be totally different, but evolving and growing.

NRAMA: I'm sure fans will be happy to know you're around for the long haul.

GJ: Well, as long as I can make my books better. That’s all I want to do now – make the monthly books just kick ass. I want the emotional levels, the action levels, everything to be better. That’s the focus with DC for the future. Monthly books.

NRAMA: Okay, last question, but one that people are dying to know. JSA? Steve Wacker has hinted at some plans after Paul Levitz’s run…

GJ: It’s so great to see Paul back on these characters again. And to see him work with the new breed like Mr. Terrific and Jakeem and Stargirl. It’s a real thrill. I can’t wait for people to check the books out. I think they’re going to be very, very happy with what Paul, George [Perez] and Rags [Morales] have done.

As for the future of JSA…yeah…some big plans. We have a couple announcements coming up that should make the rest of 2006 very interesting. You’ll have to ask Steve Wacker. Or maybe catch us at Wonder Con and buy us both a beer.